tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post1589486954842004833..comments2023-11-05T08:43:42.262+00:00Comments on John Barrys Blog: Ireland:UCC-Blasphemous exhibit "Our Lady and Other Queer Santas"John Barryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02492900180819129920noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-3710158318037661292011-08-01T08:09:04.821+01:002011-08-01T08:09:04.821+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.amiyawilliamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02243674727175881008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-89219779613287524502011-07-16T07:22:46.651+01:002011-07-16T07:22:46.651+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.amiyawilliamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02243674727175881008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-81252842603794029252011-07-15T07:48:53.952+01:002011-07-15T07:48:53.952+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.amiyawilliamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02243674727175881008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-20965611763476891742011-06-28T04:22:01.517+01:002011-06-28T04:22:01.517+01:00http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0710/limerick.html<a href="http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0710/limerick.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0710/limerick.html</a>hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-25650662757133726882011-06-28T04:20:27.208+01:002011-06-28T04:20:27.208+01:00@funkyderek & MidlandLifeNetwork, another prim...@funkyderek & MidlandLifeNetwork, another prime example of this would be the perception of a figure having appearing in a tree stump in Limerick a couple of years ago. <br /> http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0710/limerick.htmlhmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-76965857421817830902011-06-27T11:12:42.955+01:002011-06-27T11:12:42.955+01:00MidlandLifeNetwork:
You said: "there is a pa...MidlandLifeNetwork:<br /><br />You said: "there is a pattern ''painted'' inside the eyes what exactly that pattern represents is a matter of interrpretation I will agree"<br /><br />No, I'm saying there is no such pattern. The term I mentioned, pariedolia, refers to the human tendency to see patterns where there are none<br />There's really nothing about this painting that requires an explanation except the issue of why so many people are so desperate to believe that a pedestrian piece of art is really a miraculous gift from heaven.funkyderekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384006738416697844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-90580012693131733382011-06-27T02:07:08.086+01:002011-06-27T02:07:08.086+01:00Not a fan of one expressing ones opinion then John...Not a fan of one expressing ones opinion then John? <br /><br />So did this event go ahead as expected?hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-50540080600639978792011-06-26T21:59:55.579+01:002011-06-26T21:59:55.579+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-50990247279923707182011-06-26T17:31:28.192+01:002011-06-26T17:31:28.192+01:00@ funnyderek,Like I said ''leaving the sup...@ funnyderek,Like I said ''leaving the supernatural element aside'' maybe I should have said ''leaving the alledged supernatural element aside''.I actually have a high resolution copy of the original image given to me as a present by a Mexican girlfriend I had once upon a time hence my interest in the whole affair.I had no idea what it was all about at the time and but she did say that it would be a slow burner...Pareidolia! So that's what you call that phenomenon;you're obviously a educated man.That's a new term for me,it will come in useful.Anyway like I said ''leaving the alledged supernatural element aside'' the question must be asked as to why an uneducated middle aged Mexican Indian in the 16th century would bother with such detail;there is a pattern ''painted'' inside the eyes what exactly that pattern represents is a matter of interrpretation I will agree.I will also agree with the ''target market'' language.This whole deliberately provoked controversary has been one big low budget-high return guerilla marketing exercise.In fact it is a text book example.MidlandLifeNetworkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00345575246467016885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-11325808517326148722011-06-26T15:28:45.456+01:002011-06-26T15:28:45.456+01:00MidlandLifeNetwork:
You should really have taken ...MidlandLifeNetwork:<br /><br />You should really have taken my advice to keep the argument about your supposed right to never be offended. Instead, you've made testable scientific claims - and those claims are quite simply nonsense. There is nothing supernatural about the painting. It is made from widely available materials, it's in the style of the time and it shows evidence of under-drawing and considerable revision. That it incorporates Christian and native symbology is hardly miraculous, but only what would be expected.<br />You claim that "the Star pattern on the garment that the figure in the image is wearing reflects the exact configuration and positions that could be seen in the sky of Mexico on the day the alledged ''miracle'' happened". This claim can be refuted just by looking at the painting. If you do so, you will see that the stars are in a straightforward repeating pattern and bear no resemblance to any constellations. Go on, have a look. I have to ask why you made that claim when clearly you had no supporting evidence for it. Did you make it up yourself or did you just take someone's word for it without doing a modicum of research?<br />Your claim that "the eyes of the figure reveals tiny images of human figures which is repeated in each eye from a slightly different perspective" is less obviously false, but it appears to be entirely and quite deliberately made up (though I concede it could be a case of pareidolia) and certainly has no basis in fact.<br />As to whether the original is better than the "pastiche", that is surely a matter of opinion. Neither does much for me but then I'm not really the target audience for either.funkyderekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384006738416697844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-89945345689265601442011-06-26T15:05:39.852+01:002011-06-26T15:05:39.852+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.funkyderekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384006738416697844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-57126783473962279092011-06-26T11:38:24.961+01:002011-06-26T11:38:24.961+01:00@ funnyderek It is a pleasure to enage in a reason...@ funnyderek It is a pleasure to enage in a reasoned debate I have to say.I think the Aztecs took ''faith'' inspired genocide to an unprecedented level and anyone trying to deny that or compare what a handful of Spanish adventurers did to the peoples of Central America really needs to drink from the cup of rationality a tad more often.As regards the origin of the original image of our Lady of Guadalupe as relayed by one native Indian Juan Diego in 1550;it is not what I am saying or implying or denying; its what millions upon millions of Mexicans,Central Americans and Latin Americans in their homelands and around the world are saying about it.I'm willing to go with the objective evidence one way or the other.Leaving the supernatural element to one side the manual techniques,skill and intricate detail involved in the original is truly a masterpiece.Apart from the fact that every single element in the original is highly symbolic with either Christian,Aztec or Native references.The detail involved in the original image is remarkable for a ''wild west'' environment like ''New Spain'' in the 16th Century.For example the Star pattern on the garment that the figure in the image is wearing reflects the exact configuration and positions that could be seen in the sky of Mexico on the day the alledged ''miracle'' happened.<br />Another example is that under high powered microscopic examination in recent years(not NASA) the eyes of the figure reveals tiny images of human figures which is repeated in each eye from a slightly different perspective(the babbeler on the radio had his facts arseways I will agree,but the facts are the facts and there are images in the eyes).All I am saying is that the technical skill and the immagination involved in the production of the original image is worthy of more attention that a completely unoriginal,derivative and digitally produced modern image that does more for the ego and reputation of the artiste than it does for the indigenous peoples of Central America.In fact as a tribute to your own skill in articulating Art Appreciation I'll delegate my final word on the post modern pastiche mish mash to your good self's own words which I think you really meant to attach to the modern work...''It's derivative and insignificant, painted (digitally produced with a 2 click mouse) by a competent artist (lacking in immagination and manual skills on an ego trip funded by yours and my Tax Euros but hardly a master (certainly not a worthy of all the free publicity).MidlandLifeNetworkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00345575246467016885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-73135237680577344482011-06-26T01:43:50.039+01:002011-06-26T01:43:50.039+01:00I liked Laurence's comment, but it appears to ...I liked Laurence's comment, but it appears to have been removed by the administrator. Ah censorship, just like the Catholic Church of old.hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-62558766441059927052011-06-26T00:26:28.677+01:002011-06-26T00:26:28.677+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Laurencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03374551079168894783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-53097038182160394642011-06-25T21:55:18.692+01:002011-06-25T21:55:18.692+01:00MidlandLifeNetwork:
I won't get into "At...MidlandLifeNetwork:<br /><br />I won't get into "Atrocity Poker" as we could argue for hours about whether the indigenous religion of South America or that forced on them by the technologically more advanced Spanish invaders was more barbaric. I think we can all agree that both had pretty good hands.<br />What I'm more interested in is your rather perplexing claim that the painting "defies scientific or rational explanation as to its origin and techniques". As a piece of art, there's nothing notable about it. It's derivative and insignificant, painted by a competent artist but hardly a master. I dread to think that you share the delusion of your cohort in Mariolatry who babbled on RTE radio that the painting had been examined by NASA and Microsoft and found on extreme magnification to contain the reflection of the bishop in the eyes of Mary. That is obviously and crudely made up. It's embarrassingly ludicrous and you should distance yourself from such nonsense. You have some hope of convincing people to respect your belief on religious grounds but once you get into art appreciation or, worse still, science, you're dealing with reality, and there, you haven't got a prayer.funkyderekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384006738416697844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-62645789554895951382011-06-25T21:12:42.227+01:002011-06-25T21:12:42.227+01:00Atrocity Poker should be avoided at all costs.It t...Atrocity Poker should be avoided at all costs.It tends to polarise the debate,hardens positions,raises blood pressure and closes down communication.I would be lacking in humility (a sin btw for our brothers in faith) if I didn't admit that our non-theistic/atheistic brothers (not so many sisters join in these debtes for some reason)could not teach us something with their challenging perspectives.However everyone appears to have missed the obvious manipulation of sections of the irish public over the ''controversial'' exhibit.Mexican studies in Cork is with all due respect an obscure and aquired taste.With their budget blown on first class air fares for the artist and her entourgaqe the UCC authorities had no funds left to publicise the event.But then some crusty acedemic remembered the Pavlovian response and combined it Benetton's philosophy for Marketing(there is no such thing a as Bad publicity).So the day before the exhibit was due to open with no press coverage on the horizon a few carefully planted provocative photo releases acheived the Pavlovian reaction that was hoped for.On cue the usual suspects arrived to protest maybe even with a few stage managed out of work actors from Cork's fringe theatre community for effect.For three days running the Examiner newspaper has had half page soft focus stories on the brave UCC authorities and the cutting edge Chicana artiste with her digital work.The agitated protesters were portrayed as fools and has beens.It couldn't have worked out better.Hundreds of curious folks who otherwise would never have been in the UCC acedemic loop have queued up to see an art work made using 21st century digital photoshop made by a Corporate Multinational intent on digital hegemony and making billions of dollars for elite geeks; meanwhile the original masterpiece from the 16th century wild frontier of Aztec Mexico which defies scientific or rational explanation as to its origin and techniques used to ''paint'' it;is completely ignored.The native Indian Juan Diego and the indiginous Native peoples of Aztec Mexico are portrayed by the artist of the modern work as having been brutally colinised by the rapacious Spanish conquistedors meanwhile the Iconic role of Our Lady of Guadalupe and Native people's voluntary conversion in their millions to Christianity in a period of 50 years(impossible to be forced to do so by approx 400 surviving Spanish conquistedors)is also ignored.It will not insult our Atheist friends to remark on the bloodthirsty brutal hegemony of the Aztec Empire in pre-Spanish Mexico.Millions of subjegated Indian tribes were slaughtered on the bloody alters atop the great Pyramids to the Sun god and other Aztec dieities in the centre of Mexico city.The rapacious Spanish and the Christian missionaries who followed in their wake came as a welcome relief to the now Saint Juan Diego and millions of his fellow Indians.I think we can all agree;atheist of believer that the Aztec interrpretation of Religion was particularly barbaric and unfortunately the millions of innocents slaughtered by them would by current criteria be lodged on the Faith ledger in the game of Atrocity Poker.MidlandLifeNetworkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00345575246467016885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-37520179436582053222011-06-25T12:42:31.584+01:002011-06-25T12:42:31.584+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08180035343726711042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-14403216692717412082011-06-24T22:07:42.075+01:002011-06-24T22:07:42.075+01:00@John - your repeated snide comments regarding a g...@John - your repeated snide comments regarding a groups attempts to remove articles from classrooms which cause them offence. You support the majority outcome, which is quiet sad as you show little respect for an Atheists beliefs.<br /><br />As people have also raised the point, 3% Atheists, and you believe we should have no voice. Your figures do not take into consideration the number of non-practicing Catholics, the number who have not renounced their faith. But you ignore the many other faiths in our society and the fact their beliefs should be respected or represented.hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-73967870441460136602011-06-24T21:56:05.341+01:002011-06-24T21:56:05.341+01:00@John: we've run into this issue of you rehash...@John: we've run into this issue of you rehashing old arguments. <br /><br />I have also noticed your lack of direct engagement with my previous comments, and acknowledgement that you have at least learned there are two sides to every coin.<br /><br />With regards to this apparent dual identity on your comments, it is actually more plausible that the user first posted under the name NalPad, and has since decided to change his username. Your ability to ignore and deflect from uneasy direct questions is truly remarkable.hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-32507779446698076002011-06-24T21:32:30.442+01:002011-06-24T21:32:30.442+01:00@marcas Thank you, I have stated this point a few ...@marcas Thank you, I have stated this point a few times. It is just human nature. It has fallen on deaf ears, and usually been wrapped but in some retort assuming that each of the previously named murderers would not have carried out these acts if they feared God. To state that insults the memory of the people who died. It is of little comfort now. They were evil men plain and simple. Pol Pot and Mao most likely wouldn't have had a Christian upbringing anyways. I have been to the Killing Fields, and it is the most harrowing site, to not feel sad or upset at what happened here is not to be human.hmckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07979026763932726348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-7974521564692988912011-06-24T17:32:50.295+01:002011-06-24T17:32:50.295+01:00John, I invite you to step back from who-killed-ho...John, I invite you to step back from who-killed-how-many card sharking - I see your witch burning and raise you Pol Pot's killing fields.<br /><br />If every human being were atheist, there would still be murder in the world. If every human being were religious, and further, if every human being were Roman Catholic, there'd still be murder in the world. There would still be murder for all the usual and unusual human reasons - greed, lust, power, zeal, righteousness.<br /><br />To argue otherwise is undignified.marcashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11489159979240418917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-38515949557048503652011-06-24T14:53:29.916+01:002011-06-24T14:53:29.916+01:00@John Barry
I'm sure that is an answer to som...@John Barry<br /><br />I'm sure that is an answer to some question, unfortunately not to the one I asked. So can I have an answer to my above question? <br /><br />Plus, regardless of my beliefs, I have never tried to ban something on the grounds that I do not like it. People who do such things need not to complain that they are not being listened to, when by the same token they do not listen to anyone else.<br /><br />So, are you saying that Atheists should be subservient to Catholics in Ireland. If you read my previous comment, then you will realise that this is the second time I have asked this question. I would dearly love an answer not laced with bigotry and generalisations to back up your answer on this question.SeánMcKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16969022992729963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-36723547934501685732011-06-24T14:22:31.739+01:002011-06-24T14:22:31.739+01:00@SeánMcK
Atheists are not entitled to eradicate a...@SeánMcK <br />Atheists are not entitled to eradicate all symbols of Christianity in Ireland. The majority as in Italy will not allow it. And rightly so.John Barryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492900180819129920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-25993017895972654532011-06-24T13:24:59.458+01:002011-06-24T13:24:59.458+01:00@NalPad
Where on this blog did I state that I was ...@NalPad<br />Where on this blog did I state that I was going to this outrageous exhibit?<br />If you are in favour of abortion you favour the destruction of an innocent unborn life in the womb. Sanitised language does not alter the reality. People like you wish to dodge the reality. Take a look at any ultrasound on youtube. Of course everybody in favour of abortion has been born. The unborn child has a right to life.<br /><br />People like you wish to eradicate all vestiges of Christianity from Ireland.<br />Remember the European courts endeavoured to remove crosses from all classrooms in Italy at the behest of Italian atheists. The Italian people rebelled against the court decision and just continued to place crosses in classrooms. The Italian majority put atheists in their place.John Barryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02492900180819129920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6024955889759249523.post-87906805786042634092011-06-24T13:16:41.777+01:002011-06-24T13:16:41.777+01:00John:
You say several atheists posting here are u...John:<br /><br />You say several atheists posting here are using multiple identities. I can see that Sean McK and NalPad are the same person as they use the same icon and link to the same profile, but I don't think this is an attempt at subterfuge. Do you believe there are really other people here using multiple identities? If so, please name the offenders.funkyderekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16384006738416697844noreply@blogger.com